Legislature(1993 - 1994)
03/19/1993 01:35 PM Senate HES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SENATE HEALTH, EDUCATION AND SOCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE
March 19, 1993
1:35 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Steve Rieger, Chairman
Senator Bert Sharp, Vice-Chairman
Senator Loren Leman
Senator Mike Miller
Senator Jim Duncan
Senator Johnny Ellis
Senator Judy Salo
MEMBERS ABSENT
All Members Present
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
SPONSOR SUBSTITUTE FOR SENATE BILL NO. 91
"An Act providing for coverage of midwife services under
Medicaid; reordering the priority of optional services
provided by the state under Medicaid; and providing for an
effective date."
SENATE BILL NO. 45
"An Act relating to persons under 21 years of age; providing
for designation of `safe homes' for runaway minors; and
providing for an effective date."
SB 61 (IMPLEMENT ALASKA 2000 RECOMMENDATIONS) WAS SCHEDULED
BUT NOT HEARD THIS DATE.
PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION
SB 91 - No previous action to record.
SB 45 - See HESS minutes dated 3/5/93.
SB 61 - See HESS minutes dated 2/8/93, 2/10/93, 2/17/93,
2/24/93, 3/3/93, 3/8/93 and 3/17/93.
WITNESS REGISTER
Annette Kreitzer, Legislative Staff
to Senator Leman
State Capitol Building, Room 113
Juneau, Alaska 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Explained SSSB 91.
Kaye Kanne, Certified Direct-Entry Midwife
Chair, Certified Direct-Entry Midwifery Board
P.O. Box 22624
Juneau, Alaska 99802
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of SSSB 91.
Stacie Mendez
710 Willow Street
Kodiak, Alaska 99615
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of SSSB 91.
Karren Shine-Audett, Certified Direct-Entry Midwife
and Regional Director, Midwive's Association
P.O. Box 287
Girdwood, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of SSSB 91.
Grace Elliott-DeAngles
8124 Dogwood Lane
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of SSSB 91.
Sally Bryne, Midwife
P.O. Box 2110
Kodiak, Alaska 99615
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of SSSB 91.
Charlotte O'Shirley-Davis
14870 Snowshoe Lane
Anchorage, Alaska 99516
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of SSSB 91.
Sherrill Malone
Certified Direct-Entry Midwife
2000 East 66th Avenue
Anchorage, Alaska 99507
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of SSSB 91.
Sharon Evans, Certified Direct-Entry Midwife
President, of Midwives Association of Alaska
1655 Sitka, Number 204
Anchorage, Alaska 99501
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of SSSB 91.
Sally Pessage
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of SSSB 91.
Dave Williams, Planner
Project CHOICE
Division of Medical Assistance
Department of Health and Social Services
P.O. Box 110660
Juneau, Alaska 99811-0660
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of SSSB 91.
Jerry Burnett, Legislative Staff
to Senator Randy Phillips
State Capitol Building, Room 113
Juneau, Alaska 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions on SB 45.
Senator Randy Phillips
State Capitol Building, Room 113
Juneau, Alaska 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of SB 45.
Randall Hines, Acting Social Services
Program Officer
Division of Family and Youth Services
Department of Health and Social Services
Box 110630
Juneau, Alaska 99811
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions on SB 45.
Pat O'Brien, Program Officer
ALPS License and Regulations
Division of Family and Youth Services
Department of Health and Social Services
Box 110630
Juneau, Alaska 99811
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions on SB 45.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 93-27, SIDE A
Number 001
CHAIRMAN RIEGER called the Senate Health, Education and
Social Services (HESS) Committee to order at 1:35 p.m.
The first order of business was SSSB 91 (MEDICAID COVERAGE
OF MIDWIFE SERVICES), sponsored by Senator Leman. ANNETTE
KREITZER, legislative staff to Senator Leman, explained the
bill would add midwives to the category of optional
providers to be covered under Medicaid. It would also
realign the priority of payments under Medicaid so that
midwives are the lowest priority when the funds are
distributed.
KAYE KANNE, Certified Direct-Entry Midwife, Chair, Certified
Direct-Entry Midwifery Board, said the improvement in the
outcome of pregnancies resulting from the greater use of
well trained midwives has become increasingly evident. She
discussed the benefits and the use of midwifery in other
countries. Ms. Kanne said it is obvious from the good
outcomes of infants delivered by midwives that we could
reduce the numbers of new born infants requiring intensive
care by increasing the number of midwives and expanding the
services offered by them. She noted a 1989 study by the
Health Insurance Association of America (HIAA) sights a
number of ways that the U.S. can save money in health care.
A midwife's fee typically covers more time spent with a
woman during pregnancy and after the birth, and the fee is
much lower than that of a physician's fee. Ms. Kanne said
midwives rely much less on technical procedures but can
access them if necessary. She continued to discuss the
savings in dollars if midwives are used and urged passage of
the legislation.
Number 080
STACIE MENDEZ, mother of two, indicated her children were
born under the Medicaid Program. She said she would have
liked to have been able to choose the type of prenatal and
infant care that would have better met her needs and those
of her family. Care offered by midwives should be allowable
to all low risk women and their families, Ms. Mendez
concluded.
KARREN SHINE-AUDETT, Certified Direct-Entry Midwife and
Regional Director, Midwive's Association, said she feels
there are many benefits, not only to the state but people on
Medicaid, by passing SSSB 91. She said there are other
states that have allowed midwives for Medicaid recipients
and it has saved taxpayers millions of dollars. Midwives
charge a fraction of the price that individuals on Medicaid
are paying currently. Ms. Shine-Audett said there are women
who were on Medicaid who wanted to have a home birth but
didn't because midwives are not covered. There are also low
income women who have gone into debt by paying out of their
own pockets for midwives as they strongly believe that home
births are the best care. Ms. Shine-Audett said she
believes that statistics will improve immensely through the
individual attention clients receive. We need to offer
babies and their mothers the right to choose their care
providers no matter where the compensation comes from. She
said the key to preventing premature babies and unhealthy
mothers is good nutrition and individual attention. She
continued to give testimony in favor of the legislation and
encouraged the members to support the bill.
GRACE ELLIOTT-DEANGLES, testifying as a former Medicaid
mother, said eight years ago when she was pregnant she chose
midwife services. She paid for the services out of her
pocket with money she made during the fishing season as a
deck hand. Ms. Elliott-DeAngles said she moved to Juneau
after the fishing season and became an AFDC recipient. A
person receives very little money on AFDC, and it was very
difficult for her to pay her bill. She explained that if
you borrow money and you are on AFDC, you are penalized and
the AFDC check is lowered. Ms. Elliott-DeAngles explained
that a midwife will spend about an hour with a patient per
visit. She said during her last pregnancy her doctor spent
about six to eight minutes with her each visit. She urged
the committee to pass the legislation.
Number 171
SALLY BRYNE, Midwife, said women in Alaska who qualify for
Medicaid need to be in a position to make their own
decisions regarding their own health care. The medical
establishment would like us to believe that the change from
home to hospital is the reason for improved outcomes of
pregnancies. Going into the hospital is not the cause of
the improvements. Improved outcomes is a result of improved
hygiene, economic status, nutrition, and access to prenatal
care. She urged that Alaska become a state where quality
prenatal care is available to all low income women and their
families. Families will all benefit from the intensive
individualized attention given to them by midwives. She
thanked the committee for listening to her.
CHARLOTTE O'SHIRLEY-DAVIS, testifying from Anchorage, said
midwifery allows women to make choices for themselves. The
essence of midwifery is flexibility. Medicaid reimbursement
allows women more choices and flexibility in care. Ms.
O'Shirley-Davis said midwives oversee women's choices and
they assist them. There is also more whole family
involvement. She urged that there be Medicaid reimbursement
for midwifery.
SHERRILL MALONE, Certified Direct-Entry Midwife, testified
from Anchorage. She said she feels that any woman, in any
walk of life, no matter what her financial status, should be
able to choose where she would like to have her baby.
Midwives give excellent care and are able to take more time
with each women. They give the much needed nutritional
counseling to alleviate a number of complications that could
arise should the woman's nutrition be less than optimum,
which in turn causes women to fall into a high risk category
and necessitate more medical intervention, thus causing the
cost of premium care to become greater. Ms. Malone said
midwife fees usually cost less than half of what a doctor's
hospital birth would cost. If midwives had the opportunity
to bill Medicaid they would save the state many thousands of
dollars. The transport records are low and any need for any
other medical attention is very minimal. The passing of
SSSB 91 would benefit all on both sides of the spectrum.
Ms. Malone said she would appreciate the committee's support
of SSSB 91.
SENATOR SALO asked Ms. Malone what the training requirements
are for direct-entry midwives in Alaska. Ms. Malone said
for a person to become a midwife they must complete two
years of apprenticeship and a midwifery course. She said
the course is a written course that must be taken during the
two years and covers the study of every area of the aspects
of midwifery focusing on the prenatal period, nutrition, and
any complications that may arise. The course ends in
extensive testing by examination.
Number 251
SHARON EVANS, Certified Direct-Entry Midwife and President
of the Midwives Association of Alaska, said her association
has kept statistics on the families that they have served
over the last several years. The statistics have proved
that pregnant women under a midwife's care have fewer low-
weight babies, premature births, and neonatal mortality
rates than the average for the State of Alaska and the
nation. According to information received from the State of
Alaska, Department of Vital Statistics, of the babies born
at home under midwive's care, from 1989 to 1991, less than 1
percent of them were transferred to a hospital. Ms. Evans
continued to give the committee members statistics relating
to the information received from the state. Direct-Entry
Midwives, licensed in the state, propose that if they are
put on the list of Medicaid providers, the education and
nutritional counseling that they give to low income women
will help immensely to decrease the premature birth rate and
the problems associated with low birth weight babies,
thereby, dramatically reducing the cost of care to the State
of Alaska. Ms. Evans urged the committee to please consider
passing SSSB 91.
DAVE WILLIAMS, Planner, Project CHOICE, Division of Medical
Assistance, Department of Health and Social Services, said
the committee has a position paper in support of the
legislation. The department believes the bill is reasonable
legislation and women should have this choice available to
them. He said he would answer any questions the committee
may have.
Number 289
SALLY PESSAGE, testifying from Anchorage, said she has had
two births and is currently pregnant. She explained that
she saw a doctor while pregnant with her first child. Ms.
Pessage said the care she received with a midwife was much
better, far superior than a doctor's care, and there was
more personal contact. Ms. Pessage informed the committee
that she is currently on Medicaid. She indicated she will
not be covered by Medicaid if the baby is born at home. Ms.
Pessage said it is important to her, her unborn child, and
her family that she goes through a home birth with her
midwife. She asked that people on Medicaid be given the
option of having a home birth.
Number 308
CHAIRMAN RIEGER referred to the fiscal note and said a
physician birth would cost $2,000 as opposed to a midwife
birth at $1,480. He asked if those numbers seem right.
SENATOR LEMAN said he has had three children and the $2,000
for the physician assisted birth seems to be a lot lower
than what he paid.
MR. WILLIAMS explained that the $2,000 is physician only and
if a hospital were included it would be another $3,000.
SENATOR LEMAN indicated he had a proposed amendment. He
moved Amendment #1 which follows:
Page 1, line 1, after "Act":
Insert "prohibiting unfair discrimination against
direct-entry midwives who perform services within
the scope of their certification;"
Page 1, after line 4:
Insert a new bill section to read:
"* Section 1. AS 21.36.090(d) is amended to read:
(d) Except to the extent necessary to comply
with AS 21.42.365, a person may not practice or
permit unfair discrimination against a person who
provides a service covered under a group
disability policy that extends coverage on an
expense incurred basis, or under a group service
or indemnity type contract issued by a nonprofit
corporation, if the service is within the scope of
the provider's occupational license. In this
subsection, "provider" means a state licensed
physician, dentist, osteopath, optometrist,
chiropractor, nurse midwife, advanced nurse
practitioner, naturopath, physical therapist,
occupational therapist, psychologist,
psychological associate, [OR] licensed clinical
social worker, or certified direct-entry midwife."
CHAIRMAN RIEGER objected to Senator Leman's motion for the
purpose of an explanation. SENATOR LEMAN said the amendment
adds certified direct-entry midwives to the list of those
protected from unfair discrimination. He said his
understanding is that this was an oversight when legislation
was passed during the Seventeenth Legislature. The
insurance companies would have to provide payment for them
to the same extent they do for others.
Chairman Rieger asked if all the providers in the section
are mandatory providers. He said if you are offering a
health insurance policy you would have to cover all the
things listed.
MS. KREITZER said she doesn't believe that it is mandated
that the insurance companies cover all the people listed,
but means that they may not be discriminated against.
Number 379
Chairman Rieger removed his objection to Amendment #1.
There being no further objection to the motion, Amendment #1
was adopted.
SENATOR SHARP asked how many other states allow midwives to
be covered under Medicaid. SENATOR LEMAN said it is his
understanding that there is one other state which does, New
Mexico.
Number 389
Senator Leman moved to pass SSSB 91, as amended, out of the
HESS Committee with individual recommendations. Hearing no
objection, the motion carried.
Number 396
The next piece of legislation to come before the committee
was SB 45 (MISC. LAWS RELATING TO MINORS), sponsored by
Senator Randy Phillips. Chairman Rieger said there was a
proposed committee substitute. JERRY BURNETT, legislative
staff to Senator Randy Phillips, referred to the proposed
committee substitute and said it makes a number of changes.
The largest changes are in Sections 1, 13, and 17, as they
incorporate an amendment offered by Senator Duncan at the
last hearing on the bill. The amendment relates to the
detention and incarceration of minors. He said it would put
state law in conformity with federal law. Mr. Burnett said
another change is in Section 2. The department asked that
the term "protect" be changed to "reduce the risk to." That
was for the purpose of reducing their liability as they
don't believe that they are able to adopt regulations that
can absolutely protect a juvenile in a safe home. Mr.
Burnett referred to Section 14 and said a provision was
added that if a runaway is known to be in the custody of the
state and is evading the custody of the state, the safe home
operator would have to notify state authorities. There is
also a provision that a safe home operator must notify the
parents within forty-eight hours of a runaway coming to a
safe home. He referred to Section 19 and said the wording
was changed in AS 47.35.085(b)(2), by request of the
Department of Health and Social Services. Section 9 was
removed which referred to the possession and purchase of a
firearm by persons under the age of twenty-one.
SENATOR ELLIS asked Mr. Burnett if there was a new name for
"safe home" as there is confusion of existing safe homes.
Mr. Burnett indicated they have not come up with a better
name.
Number 452
SENATOR DUNCAN moved to adopt the CSSB 45 (HES). Hearing no
objection, the motion carried.
Chairman Rieger referred to page 3, line 5, and said at the
last meeting, a witness indicated that they had a problem
with the wording "having control." The witness stated it
was a problem for non-custodial parents. Mr. Burnett said
he spoke briefly with the drafter and there was a question
as to whether or not to open up the question of non-
custodial parents.
SENATOR ELLIS indicated concern about not addressing the
concerns of custodial and non-custodial parents. He said he
believes it should be clarified.
Number 481
Chairman Rieger referred to page 4, lines 4 - 7, and said
there was a question relating to liability. MR. BURNETT
said the section makes it a crime of contributing to the
delinquency of a minor for someone who aids, induces,
causes, or encourages a child to be absent from their
parents. A question came up as to whether or not this would
mean that a person in a runaway shelter was then
contributing to the delinquency of a minor. He said that is
dealt with on page 7.
Chairman Rieger referred to page 4, line 18, and said there
is reference to "after 10:00 p.m. on the night before school
is in session." He said he assumes that is the school the
minor is attending. Chairman Rieger asked if there is a
need for clarifying language. Mr. Burnett said that concern
has not been brought to his attention. Chairman Rieger
moved to insert "the minor's" before the word "school."
There being no objection to the motion, the new language was
adopted.
Chairman Rieger referred to the committee substitute
language offered by Senator Duncan on page 5, line 10,
"however, detention in a correctional facility under this
paragraph may not exceed the lesser of (A) six hours; or (B)
the time necessary to arrange the minor's transportation..."
He questioned whether it should say "lesser" or "greater."
SENATOR DUNCAN said the language should limit the time a
minor may be held in an adult facility to six hours except
in certain cases.
RANDALL HINES, Acting Social Services Program Officer,
Division of Family and Youth Services, Department of Health
and Social Services, said the reason there are two options
is to try to limit the amount of time a child can be held
under these circumstances recognizing that the ideal under
federal law is that kids not be held there at all. He said
they are trying motivate the process of getting them into an
appropriate juvenile facility rather than holding them for
extended periods of time.
Chairman Rieger asked what would happen if a minor is
arrested in a rural village and there isn't a plane until
the next morning which is eight hours away. Mr. Hines said
federal law recognizes that there are conditions, acts of
God, where you wouldn't be able to move a child. He said it
has been under discussion in the federal regulatory process
to try and get federal regulations amended to allow those
kinds of situations to be exempt under law. Mr. Hines said
the section in the bill that speaks to this was accepted by
the federal government. It would have to be documented as
to why the time had to exceed six hours.
Number 533
Chairman Rieger referred to page 6, line 23, "A safe home
may not shelter a runaway minor for more than seven days
unless the department determines that..." He said there had
been testimony requesting longer periods of time. Chairman
Rieger asked what the issue is.
PAT O'BRIEN, Program Officer, ALPS License and Regulations,
Division of Family and Youth Services, Department of Health
and Social Services, said in the current licensing statute
there is a ninety day exemption for a twenty-four hour care
facilities. She said if a person is offering their home as
a safe home, then they would have to fall under regulation.
Ms. O'Brien said last year the department had asked that the
90 day clause be removed. Chairman Rieger said if a runaway
shows up at a safe home and is there for seven days, what
would happen on the eighth day. Ms. O'Brien said if the
department hears about it, the people would be informed of
the law, they would be given an application and told that
they need to become a licensed safe home.
Chairman Rieger asked what is involved with the time
limitation. MR. HINES said the intent is to bring the child
and family back together and not allow a long period of time
without some kind of intervention. The department's intent
is, under existing runaway laws, to get families and
children back together as soon as possible and not leave
them in an alternate placement without some kind of case
plan.
SENATOR DUNCAN asked if the department has the capabilities
to respond in seven days. MR. HINES said the department has
the capability to respond in seven days, but what those
alternatives are may be limited, depending on the community
where this is occurring. In larger communities where there
are more foster homes and services available, there would be
more alternatives. MS. O'BRIEN said the other alternative
is that the home could convert to an emergency foster home
license and keep the child for a longer period of time. She
noted that would mean a more extensive review.
TAPE 93-27, SIDE B
Number 001
Senator Duncan said he thinks there should be a period of
time where the department would be required to evaluate the
child and get involved at a case level. He said 90 days
seems like a long period of time. Mr. Hines said if a child
is placed in a home and reaches the seven day time period,
and it is determined that is the best alternative for the
child, the department can take alternative action, such as
an emergency license, to be sure that child stays in that
home if that is the best place for the child to be.
SENATOR ELLIS indicated concern on line 26, "A safe home may
not shelter a runaway minor for more than seven days unless
the department determines that... (2) another appropriate
setting is not available for the minor." He said it seems
like that is a tremendous disincentive to ever getting more
permanent foster homes on line. It is a disincentive to
having adequate runaway shelters that have some sort of
therapeutic counseling component services.
MR. HINES said the initiative that the division has
undertaken to go to family preservation/family centered
services and to train a staff in shifting their thinking
about removal and the rescue based model, etc. is something
that the division is moving forward in with some success.
He said he believes that the shift in philosophy would be
another safeguard.
Senator Ellis asked if kids would go through some kind of
review process other than the department's internal foster
care review process. Mr. Hines said kids in court ordered
custody will go through the review process. If a youth was
in a safe home and under the state's custody, then the same
kind of review process would occur. If they were not in
court ordered custody, it would be his understanding that
the internal review process would not occur.
Senator Ellis indicated concern with including "(2)." If
the safe home can be used beyond seven days, the home should
be part of a review process. He said there needs to be some
kind of a review and we need to work with the department to
figure out a review that is reasonable and within the
department's given resources so that kids that aren't in
foster care aren't lost in the system.
Number 105
CHAIRMAN RIEGER referred to page 6, line 23, and asked if
"seven days" means seven consecutive days. He asked what if
a runaway goes to a safe home, is placed back with their
family, and then three months later they go back to the safe
home. SENATOR RANDY PHILLIPS said he wouldn't have a
problem with saying "seven consecutive twenty-four hour
periods." Chairman Rieger said two different time periods
couldn't be added together for the total of seven days. MR.
HINES said the question hasn't been discussed with the
drafter of the legislation.
Chairman Rieger referred to page 6, line 27, "(b) The
provider of a safe home shall promptly inform the department
of a runaway minor in the home..." He asked if the verbiage
"promptly inform" when talking about child abuse is the same
type of verbiage that applies to other people who are under
duty to report. SENATOR SALO referred to page 7, line 7,
and said it defines it by saying "but within 48 hours." She
said she was reading that as the definition of "promptly
inform."
CHAIRMAN RIEGER referred to page 9, lines 11 - 13, "The
department shall also offer counseling services to the
person having legal custody of the minor and to the members
of the minor's household if it determines that counseling
services would be appropriate in the situation," and
questioned what is being mandated. MS. O'BRIEN said if the
department is involved, it could be anything from short term
intervention to allow a cooling off period to very serious
issues that might require outside counseling. She said if
the issues become more serious, then the department may
become involved in a legal way.
SENATOR ELLIS referred to page 6 and page 7, relating to
"promptly inform" and the "48 hours," and said his staff has
informed him that the suggestion was putting "48 hours in
both places - "(b)" and "(c)." MR. HINES said the
department wouldn't have an objection.
Number 170
Senator Ellis moved that on page 6, line 27, after "shall
promptly" insert "but within 48 hours." Chairman Rieger
asked if there was an objection to the motion. SENATOR
LEMAN objected. He said if a minor is taken into custody on
a Friday night, the 48 hours would expire on a Sunday night.
Senator Ellis asked if it is the Division of Family and
Youth Services' testimony that they never work on weekends
and that there is no way to respond to a child in crises
over the weekend. He said he didn't think that was the
case. Mr. Hines said that is not the case. There is a way
to get in touch with on call staff. MS. O'BRIEN said within
communities where the department isn't able to have a person
on call, there is always the ability to work through the
local police to make sure there is some kind of contact.
Where there are on call workers, they are used to being
called on the weekends. Senator Leman removed his
objection. Hearing no further objection to Senator Ellis'
motion, the amendment passed.
CHAIRMAN RIEGER said there was a question regarding the
designation of "safe home" and finding a different name. He
moved that every place where "safe home" appears in the
bill, change the word to "shelter" or "shelters." Hearing
no objection, it was so ordered.
He asked the department if any changes in the bill would
require new fiscal notes. MS. O'BRIEN said "no."
Number 218
SENATOR ELLIS said a witness raised concern about the term
"runaway" and whether it covers those children who are known
as "throwaways." The suggestion was made to use the term
"homeless youth." Senator Ellis asked if "runaway" is
inclusive of kids who runaway and kids who are thrown out.
Ms. O'Brien said the way the department sees it is the idea
covers all of the various files. In the committee member's
files there is a memorandum dated March 13, which discusses
federal definitions. Senator Ellis asked if kids of any
classifications would have a right to the protections. Ms.
O'Brien said they would.
Senator Ellis said there was a point raised about a current
court challenge to the immunity from liability statute
relating to page 7, line 24, and asked if that has been
addressed. He said he assumes that the court challenge
hasn't been resolved, and so there isn't a way to anticipate
anything with the legislation. Mr. Burnett indicated that
is correct.
Number 263
Senator Ellis said he had some proposed amendments.
Amendment #1 would delete the section of the bill that
allows parents to petition the court to sever their legal
responsibilities for a minor which is called "Removal of
Disabilities of a Minor." Amendment #1 follows:
Page 1, line 12:
Delete "16 - 19"
Insert "10 - 13"
Page 2, line 4, through page 3, line 7:
Delete all material
Renumber the following bill sections accordingly.
Senator Ellis said his amendments were drafted to the
original bill. It was indicated that the amendment would
remove sections 3 - 8 of the committee substitute.
CHAIRMAN RIEGER objected to the adoption of Senator Ellis'
Amendment #1. A roll call vote was taken. Senators Rieger,
Sharp, Leman, and Miller voted against the adoption of
Amendment #1. Senators Duncan, Ellis, and Salo voted in
favor of the adoption of Amendment #1. So the motion
failed.
SENATOR ELLIS moved Amendment #2. He said it would set some
standards. Since Amendment #1 wasn't adopted and if we are
going to allow people to divorce their difficult children at
the age of 16, the amendment sets out some standards to be
used by the courts and others to determine if the divorce
should be allowed to proceed. Amendment #2 follows:
Page 3, lines 15-19:
Delete all material and insert:
"*Sec. 8. AS 09.55.590(f) is repealed and
reenacted to read:
(f) If the petition under this section is
filed by a minor, the court may remove the
disabilities of minority as requested in the
petition if the court finds on the record after a
hearing that the minor is a resident of the state,
at least 16 years of age, living separate and
apart from the parent or guardian of the minor,
and capable of self-support and managing the
minor's own financial affairs. If the petition
under this section is filed by the legal custodian
of a minor, the court may remove the disabilities
of minority as requested in the petition only if
the court, in addition to making the other
findings required under this subsection for a
petition filed by a minor, makes a finding on the
record that there is interpersonal conflict
involving the legal custodian and the minor that
the custodian and the minor have been unable to
resolve satisfactorily through other means; the
finding must include an estimate based on evidence
in the record of when the interpersonal conflict
began and a description of the efforts that were
made by the legal custodian to resolve the
interpersonal conflict before the custodian filed
the petition under this section."
SENATOR LEMAN said he agrees that it shouldn't be easy for a
parent to divorce their child. He said he doesn't know what
the current court standards are, but indicated he hopes they
are not easy standards.
SENATOR ELLIS asked if any other states allow parent
instituted emancipation from a difficult kid. MS. O'BRIEN
indicated she doesn't know the answer but would try and find
out. Senator Ellis referred to "tough love" parents and
said they are extraordinary people who are going through
enormous pain. He continued to discuss the tough love
parents.
SENATOR RANDY PHILLIPS said his concern is the length of
time it will take to go through the court system. He said
if a parent is seeking relief, would there be a time limit.
Senator Ellis said the court will take the time they want to
take. He said he doesn't think that the amendment is asking
for any certifications that could be used as justification
for a long extended period of time.
Number 446
CHAIRMAN RIEGER referred to the two references of "on the
record" in Senator Ellis' amendment and asked what the
meaning is. SENATOR ELLIS said he doesn't know exactly what
the meaning is. Chairman Rieger said he would feel better
if those references were deleted. He said he is worried
that there might be a conflict with some confidentiality
provisions. Senator Ellis said he doesn't think that "on
the record" betrays any kind of private information because
things that the court does all the time, in terms of minors,
is confidential. SENATOR RANDY PHILLIPS indicated the next
committee of referral is Judiciary and said legal could
address the concern there.
Chairman Rieger asked what the meaning is of "the finding
must include an estimate based on evidence in the record of
when the interpersonal conflict began and a description of
the efforts that were made by the legal custodian to resolve
the interpersonal conflict before the custodian filed the
petition under this section."
Senator Ellis said by including that wording in the
amendment, he wants to make sure that the judge knows what
the nature of the conflict is.
SENATOR MILLER said they will have to show that they have
tried to do something in the process whether it is
counseling, etc. Senator Miller moved to change the wording
to say "the finding must include a description of the
efforts that were made by the legal custodian to resolve the
interpersonal conflict before the custodian filed the
petition under this section."
TAPE 93-28, SIDE A
Number 001
CHAIRMAN RIEGER asked if there was an objection to amend
Amendment #2. Hearing no objection, the motion carried.
Chairman Rieger asked if there was an objection to adopting
Amendment #2 as amended. Hearing no objection, Amendment #2
was adopted.
Number 029
SENATOR ELLIS moved for the adoption of Amendment #3. He
explained that the amendment would add new subsections for
the department to provide appropriate preemancipation
services to a minor. Currently, we allow 16 year olds to
petition and justify why they ought to be emancipated from
their parents through the court system. He said we don't
provide any services to make sure those young people become
self sufficient and not welfare cases. Senator Ellis said
both parties will be able to petition the court so he
believes there will be an increase in the number of people
being emancipated at the age of 16 unless there are
preemancipation services for the kids. Amendment #3
follows:
Page 1, line 12:
Delete "16 - 19"
Insert "17 - 20"
Page 5, after line 14:
Insert a new bill section to read:
*Sec. 13. AS 47.10.230 is amended by adding new
subsections to read:
(h) The department shall provide appropriate
preemancipation services to a minor who is 16
years of age or older and who wishes to petition
the court for emancipation under AS 09.55.590, or
to a child 16 years of age or older who has been
committed to the custody of the department and for
whom the department finds that preemancipation
services are appropriate or needed. The services
may include
(1) assistance in completing academic or
vocational training designed to make the child
employable;
(2) assistance in acquiring and managing
suitable housing; assistance under this paragraph
may include financial assistance to the child;
(3) training and supervision in skills needed
for independent living;
(4) assistance in petitioning for removal of
the disabilities of minority; and
(5) social support and services coordination.
(i) The department may award a grant to or
contract with a municipality or with an entity
incorporated under AS 10.20 or licensed under AS
47.35.085 to provide preemancipation services
under (h) of this section. The commissioner shall
adopt regulations establishing criteria for the
award of grants under this subsection.
(j) If the child is committed to the custody of
the department, the department may recruit and
train foster parents to provide preemancipation
services under (h) of this section."
Renumber the following bill sections accordingly.
SENATOR MILLER objected to Senator Ellis' motion to adopt
Amendment #3. He said in some ways it is contrary to
Amendment #2, as it says that in order for the parents to
file for emancipation, the minor has to be separate and
apart from the parent or guardian and capable of self-
support and managing their own financial affairs.
SENATOR ELLIS said he wouldn't have an objection rewording
the amendment to say, "The department may provide
preemancipation services..." Senator Miller indicated
concern with the fiscal note. Senator Ellis said "you pay
here or you pay in the welfare rolls that everybody is so
concerned about."
SENATOR SALO said by changing "shall" to "may," it answers a
lot of the concerns regarding the fiscal note. There
basically isn't a fiscal note unless the department can
afford it. The department may choose to look at trying to
afford it based on the "pay now or pay more later" theory.
SENATOR DUNCAN said he thinks it is a good amendment. By
changing "shall" to "may" means it will never happen. He
suggested using the wording, "The department shall provide
appropriate preemancipation services to a minor who is 16
years of age or older when requested..."
SENATOR MILLER said he doesn't have an objection to changing
the wording from "shall" to "may." He said he will still
probably oppose the amendment because when an individual
files for emancipation, they have to show that they are
already living separately and apart. Senator Ellis pointed
out the wording is "preemancipation services." It would
cover the time from when the minor is in state custody
leading up to when they are going to be on their own.
Number 174
SENATOR ELLIS said his motion to amend Amendment #3 is in
"(h)" on the first line delete "shall" and insert "may," and
on the second line after the word "minor" insert "upon
request." CHAIRMAN RIEGER asked if there was an objection
to amend Amendment #3. Hearing no objection, the motion
carried. Chairman Rieger said amended Amendment #3 is
before the committee. A roll call vote was taken. Senators
Rieger, Sharp, Miller and Leman voted against the adoption
of Amendment #3. Senators Duncan, Ellis and Salo voted in
favor of the adoption of Amendment #3. So the motion
failed.
Number 201
SENATOR MILLER moved to pass CSSB 45 (HES), out of the
Senate HESS Committee with individual recommendations and
with the accompanying fiscal notes. SENATOR ELLIS objected
to the motion. A roll call vote was taken. Senators
Rieger, Sharp, Duncan, Leman and Miller voted in favor of
the motion. Senators Ellis and Salo were against the
motion. So CSSB 45 (HES), moved out of committee with
individual recommendations and accompanying fiscal notes.
Number 218
CHAIRMAN RIEGER adjourned the Senate HESS Committee meeting
at 3:25 p.m.
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